===================================== Culture is Culprit ===================================== Panel: Dr. Subbaramaih, Ajeet, Neelkamal and Chandralekha, Manavade Moderator: SSK Iyer, Asha SKI: What role does culture play and what does your experience tell you in terms of what needs to be done. Manavade: When we started work with Devadasis, then the question arises as to why one becomes a devadasi. The answer is it has come from our ancestors, it is our culture, and it is our life. What does culture and life mean? Who can answer - organization, people or society. I do not understand even today. In olden days when there was a system of life which was headed by women and there was free sex among human beings. When they started family life, and introduced the marriage system, even then man continues free sex outside the perview of the marital status. These are systems that man has continued for his convenience. Is convenience the culture? This convenience has become a great problem in developing the culture also. We call man as a civilized being. When why should he continue the old practice? Is it a humanitarian or necessary? Were we able to answer all these questions - sociologists, economists, administrators and politicians - unless we address these questions, we have to live with these problems. SKI: How did you [Dr. Subbaramaih] address the problem? Dr. Subbaramaih: Suppose the system is tradition, we can organize community mobilization and sensitization about the practice. Forming committees can be formed to to safeguard/prevent fresh dedication. Media can be effective in enforcing this. Take the case of Tagore [recent telugu movie]. Its subject was corruption. Everybody is eager to learn about it. It reaches the rural masses. SKI: What was your experience in confronting traditional forms of prostitutions? What did you find effective? Dr. Subbaramaih: It is a little to difficult to say [to capture the intricacies]. Kula Panchayat, the elders, are always looking for special identity. To eradicate, we have to go deep into the community to sensitize everyone. We have put in continuous effort in counseling the victims as well as the community - youth and village elders. It will take some time. We can also find out the root cause the system. SKI: How did tackle cultural issues in your [Neel Kamal's] context. Neelkamal: The cause of most evils in society, e.g., communalism and exploitation in various forms, are due to the culture. In Shillong, it is women dominated society and there the situation is very different from male dominated societies. We face a lot of opposition for any change that we would like to see. People say that we have received this as a tradition and they don't want simply discard them. SKI: How do we tackle them? Neelkamal: We should have community marriages in such societies so that these women can get established in society, and it is also important to treat them equally as human beings. Chandralekha: Education will help create awareness and thinking. We need to open schools. Force does not work. We go to different houses telling the mothers that they [Chandralekha and Neelkamal] will help with the marriage of the child. Neelkamal: To be able to change any community, you need to understand what the deficiency/root cause of the cultural facet of that community is, and how they have reached this stage. This has to be done at the grass roots level. Ajeet: The village in which I am living is already rehabilitated as per the government books. The whole village - each family was given a house, Rs. 20,000 and few of the women were married off. As of today, not a single rehabilitation has succeeded. You can see the strength of it. I also met the district magistrate, Mr. D. S Rai, a couple of times to know his point of view. I purposely stayed in this village. There were a couple of other villages in my mind. It is a challenge. Any effort into which you pump a lot of money, it is not necessary that you will see good results. You need that something different/extra. This extra has many aspects - love, your approach - which you will have to find out. Money is not equal to rehabilitation. It is applicable to redlight areas in my view. It was a not a small thing - giving so many houses, money and marriages - there was a lot of effort that went into it. That shows the gaps in understanding, the strength of culture. After 3 years, I have not come to any conclusions. After so many years, I could understand the redlight areas better than the villages. I am slow - very slow at times. My friends are all irritated. We are talking about social change and people, we cannot be mechanical. We have to be very patient. In the beginning they might sound very harsh but they soften with time. They have tradition of singing and dancing. I use it positively. Don't deny it completely. I have never said you [Bedia village community] are right or wrong. No judgement at all. Like a kingfisher, I sit waiting for them [to provide me hooks into their system]. The entire village is willing to go with me for as many days as I want, and none of the family members say anything. SKI: You are essentially saying that you can use cultural forms, and give it a twist that is more acceptable to the society. Ajeet: That's one aspect of it. It is like going with the wave and branching off at times. It is practical and easy. Ideas may be good but implementation is hard. Here it [use of cultural activity] has worked very well. Sometimes we have shows where we need only four women, and there are 20 of them fighting for that chance. It is very beautiful dance that is very similar to Rajasthani dance - very ethnic. That's one thing I could do. Inspite of this I have not come to any conclusion. It is an ongoing process. If you ask me the background reason for all this, the dominant reason is the patriarchic system for this. Forget about Bedia, if you look at our own families it is there - the right to dominance in the family when compared to the sisters. SKI: Are you suggesting each of us must start with change within ourselves? Ajeet: That's what it boils down to, and then we can understand the system there better. Let us not try and understand that [Bedias] in isolation. It is the same system that has percolated there - a system with the same double standards in morality. SKI: In case of Devadasis and Mathammas, what I understand is there is religious sanction for the practice, where as other places do not have to deal with religion. Clearly religion and culture are closely interlinked. How have you been to break that link or what have you observed? Manavade: When the girl is dedicated as Yellamma, the priest is dominating over that girl and community. Whatever be the orders passed by the priest, the community has to implement. Everything requires the permission of the priest. That is the system prevailing even today. We have a question in mind: Who is that priest? Who has made him the priest of the temple? Did society appoint the priest? It is the not the case. It is ancestral - even after independence. Instead of having a trust, only Soudatya (?) has a trust committee and the priest is appointed by that committee. The one temple we have in our taluka, priests are selected by ancestral right. How could this system be established and why? When we have followed the democratic systems elsewhere why the religious system is not? No anthropologist or sociologist could answer. Under this system, things are going on, whether right or wrong according to the whims and fancies of the people who governed it. Accordingly what we did to break this, we sensitized the priests themselves. The very first seminar was organized in the premises of K…Yellamma Devasthanam. With the help of government, police, social welfare department and public we conducted a seminar. The very priest has provided lunch and tea. With such reputation building at the beginning itself, our task would become easier. Even otherwise when we started sensitizing the community (the women folk), [we found that after] almost one year of sensitization effort, it used to go in vain in one order of the priest. If he was convinced of our activities, he used to accept them. Otherwise, he used to ask the devotees to disobey. The first five years of our effort went in vain. Later when people themselves realized that they are going to get some benefit or other from our activities, they gradually started trusting us. Otherwise, it was a big rumor that we are going to lift those children. Once they were convinced that we will not take their children, they started trusting us and obliging our program and participating in it. Today they totally stopped dedicating inspite of the priest's order not to. The have disobeyed the priest. The chances are very bright for setting up rehabilitation techniques now. SKI: Can we say that we need to work with the community in nonreligious fora? Manavade: We have to work with them. We neednt work for them. SKI: What was your experience? Dr. Subbaramaih: Regarding the mathamma dedication practice, it is due to unscientific beliefs regarding the health aspects of the community. It was mainly health risks - when the pregnant mother or child suffers from any disease, they don't to the hospital. They go to the local temple and pray saying that if everything works find, they will dedicate the new child to Mathamma. Also, while the child is in the womb and the family wants a male child, they pray saying if the child turns out to be male, they will dedicate their female child to Mathamma. Another belief is that if a child is dedicated, then goddess Mathamma will save the entire community from floods and diseases. So it is all related to unscientific beliefs on the health aspects. There is a Mathamma Act to prevent dedication. To eradicate the practice, we need to organize and sensitize the community to the consequences of the Mathamma practice. The victims are dedicated children, existing mathammas and the partner community. There is high risk of STD/HIV/AIDS. The mainstream (youth, women etc.) have to be sensitized to the evils of the practice. We can form village level committees to act as a watch dog against the dedication. At the mandal level, we can form the committees with the police SI, MRO (Mandal Revenue Officer) who also acts as the magistrate, and MDO (Mandal Development Officer) for enforcement of the Mathamma act as well as making available any government rehabilitation programs. SKI: You are suggesting that awareness, and legal and administrative means. Dr. Subbaramaih: Unless the community is involved, we cannot depend on law. Stanly: I would like to add that we are forgetting the major culture from Kanyakumari to Kashmir which is the mindset we have. The so-called rich culture itself is discriminatory and maintains double standards - starting from how we talk about women is a big issue. Even educated are not free from this. This [Mathamma/Devadasi etc.] is the model at specific places, but in the larger scale, how the men look at women in prostitution is the question. Anita: it is related to the point made by Ajeet. Stanly: It starts at home. We do not even allow our children to see movies relating to discrimination. Ajeet: It is the result of the whole system. It [Mathamma etc.] should not be looked at in isolation. Nafisa: You [Manavade] told us how you sensitized the priest. Did you organization target town elders or religious figures to bring about change? Manavade: Yes. Ajeet: It is in the blood. The priest is within each individual. She is doing things as a matter of pride. I have to help my family, it is my culture etc. Then the person who is suffering is blinded by the culture, she goes with the system For that we need a different approach. I don't see a priest outside. It is like a caste system. I don't think every house is being provided with a manusmriti. It has come into practice. Each and every village, it is everywhere. Neelkamal: In our place there is no intercaste marriage. No priest wants to come and perform marriages. The solution is probably to have intercaste marriages - that way the priests will think that we are like their own people. We are trying to educate people so that they can take their own initiatives. Rajaram: Ajeet and Neelkamal mentioned about marriages of sex workers into the community. How does that work? How do men accept marrying women from these villages? How do their parents accept? Neelkamal: We are planning on it. Reassure the parents, look for a bridegroom and take the girl into confidence. In the last 3 years, several boys told me that they would be willing to marry a girl from the village. I want to make it a practice. Girls are very much willing to marry because it is an opportunity for them to get out of the village. There has been recent case where the girl was being forced into prostitution by her parents, and she preferred a married life. Manavade: We have received a good number of letters saying they want to marry a devadasi. We are careful. We verify the genuinity of the person. We do not respond immediately. If the boy persists, then we think of that and we place with the parents committee of the beneficiary group. If they are interested, we enter into an alliance. Chandravel: What is your opinion about marriages as an option? Ajeet: We got two marriages done in Bedia. For us marriage is not a rehabilitation alternative. We can let the woman decide for herself. It is not in my agenda. But when the situation developed in Bedia, I didn't say no. Married women in Bedia do not participate in the sex trade. Ramamohan: In Dommara community in Andhra Pradesh, even if the girl gets married, she continues the profession. Dr. Subbaramaih: Mathamma girls are denied marriage. They can have children but not marriage. So are afraid of it. Suppose some boy marries, the community believes that the goddess will be angry. Marriage is possible before dedication. Manavade: Marriage is not a boy-girl issue. It is a family, community affair. Most of the love marriages have been failures in our observation. We do not want to throw away the marriage tradition. Marriage is not a life. Anita: It is not just about marriage. It is also about status and respect given to single women. One reason girls might want to marry and might see more security in marriage is because they might feel more at risk. Ajeet: There is no formula, and it changes from place to place, situation and on woman. SKI: Another topic is that the general population needs to be included. What is the role of literature in this? Manavade: Literature plays a big role in social change. By reading stories, novels there will be reform. It is our experience and we have started a publication to have impact on the common man. SKI: What impact it has had? Manavade: People are coming to help us. By reading an article in Taranga, one person came and donated Rs. 25,000 to the children. This it the impact of the article. It has convinced some sensible person. Dr. Subbaramaih: In our target community, literacy level is low. AIDS related manuals are printed and kept in the godowns because nobody reads them. There was one ad campaign in TV. It had a slogan: Will Puliraja contract AIDS? It became very sensational. People were curious and started asking who is Puliraja and whats AIDS. Some people went to the court saying Puliraja should use Nirodh. (??). Even if people are busy with their work, they see TV. They don't have time to read literature. It is very useful to play audio/video/cinema in rural areas. There are TVs in rural areas. Hansa: You said that printed material is not useful for target community. Don't you need that you should involve nearby communities - upper class/educated folks? Dr. Subbaramaih: Yes. But the key people already know NeelKamal: In our place, there is a newsletter called Suchi Muchi. We sit with the villagers, give them piece of paper and we ask them to write whatever they feel like. They write. We collect them and publish them. After seeing the newsletter many people came forward to highlight their problems. Documentary films are very effective. We spoke to Anand Parwardhan. We called some 5-600 people to an auditorium (Gandhi Bhavan, Lucknow) to show the film he produced. It got good response. In the village, we show films on womens rights. We asked Anand Patwardhan to make a film on our village. Any income from royalty can be put back in the village. Apte: As early as 1936, V Shantaram created Manos in Marathi. They were good films and they generated tremendous impact - this generation of people might not have seen. Mandi and Bahar featuring Shabana Azmi and Smita Patil have been very effective. Rajaram: Even in Tamil, there have been movies which have been covering the issue. In recent times: Mahanadi talked about trafficking, Nayakan talked about prostitution, and so on. Some movies have some out in which women and prostitution have been potraying in a reasonably sensitive manner. Chandravel: There are various media. We should use media that is appropriate to the community, their culture and their way of receiving the message. Ajeet: We have to look at the biggest social system, understand and use them. It is all related. The status of women and patriarchy has to be looked into. With this vision, we began Guria magazine. The magazine has been instrumental in all movements across the world. It has been effective in connecting a range of people. At the same time we have over 1000 subscribers. So it has greater impact in the society. They can have an impact on redlight areas, trafficking and so on. If they are ignorant, then things happen. If society keeps quiet then it is an attestation to what negative things happen in society. Hansa: You talked your festivals. You want to use skills that they already have. Just twist them to make money in different way. Do you see skills that can be isolated in all of these communities and can be leveraged to use them in a positive way? As I understand in the south you do not get any training. Ajeet: Athni participated in the program. They liked it. The program was successful. Hansa: Is there something you can do together? Ajeet: We will have to improvise on what we have. There are ready to go. They need to be trained. Hansa: You said that they get trained in music and dance as children. So they are already exposed to music and dance. You are using what they already have and like, and giving them a different way to use what they have. Do mathamma children have something that can be isolate and be leveraged? Dr. Subbaramaih: It will come with awareness - more information about dedication, kolupu festival and so on. But they do dance at Kolupu. That can be modified. SKI: I would like to end this on a couple of notes: May be the group as a whole can have one magazine in various languages. I thank all the speakers. There is lot more that we can learn from you. There will be many more such sessions going forward.