Session 9: Wrap-Up Session (to form the Forum)

Presenters: Sandeep Pandey and Michael Mazgaonkar
Moderator: Supriya


Sandeep: The purpose of this session is to see whether a concrete forum can be formed to support people's movements.I want to see how many people there are who want to be involved in this kind of activity, and I then want those people to lead this discussion. People like Michael and me can tell you what we, those of us working in India, expect from you.

The NAPM, Medha, Thomas Kocherry etc have felt the need for this kind of interaction.

Amrish: Please tell us a little more about NAPM first.

Sandeep: OK, NAPM is a national alliance; it has representation from people's movements all over India. Among the prominent constituents of the NAPM are:
- NBA (Narmada Bachao Andolan)
- Azadi Bachao Andolan (working against MNCs),which is no longer all that active. It has limited its activities and involvement with the NAPM.
- Samajwadi Jan Parishad is a political party. Some people are holding on to the social views without making a compromise. A lot of the Gandhian leaders at that time are also part of this. Then there are the fish workers associations, headed by Thomas Kocherry. Also there are other peoples' movements and organizations.

NAPM's structure is that there is a team of 15 national conveners to represent the movements. They meet once in three months and they discuss actions and future plans. There is one national meeting where all the activists meet and discuss what is going on. The ideology is Gandhian socialistic. However, its working is quite flexible. The NAPM has made it clear so far that it will not be part of any electoral politics. The organizations/movements work mostly independently, but they do come together during struggles. For the Enron struggle they all came together to make a national impact. It is a flexible structure where the different groups maintain their identity but seek each other's strength during various movements.

Michael: NAPM was born out of the feeling that there is a need for a movement that can have a national impact, because it was felt that we were not having any impact in national level policies.

Sandeep: A lot of time people come to meetings because of their personal relationships.

Q: Is Leo Saldhana's group a part of NAPM?

Sandeep: No, it is not but he has contributed at various times.

Dr. Bhagat: You say NAPM does not accept foreign funds. But why are we considered foreigners?

Michael: That is because you earn in foreign currency.

Dr.Bhagat: Is it just that or is it because some of us have US citizenship? AISPN/BGVS also said that but they are now considering it.

Sandeep: When I was invited to be national convener, I raised the same issue since I work for Asha and with foreign funds, but they accepted that because Asha was just a support group. So the NAPM is not inflexible on this and they're willing to reconsider these things. To carry on the discussion, we need a moderator.

[Discussion on who is to be moderator. Finally Satinath suggests that moderator be someone who has not moderated before and a woman. Pushpa suggests Supriya.] Rajesh: During this morning's discussion, Anand has noted down list of the various tasks that this forum can undertake. Let Anand tell us about this.

Anand: These are some of the items that were suggested by Sandeep and Michael, though the minute keepers would have a more complete record:
- Analyze various trends - technical, economical;
- Design support - technological engineering skills. For example, Pedal Power, etc.;
- Understand money flows to India to use it as a tool for lobbying;
- Anti-nuclear movements;
- Work independently to contribute to/question the calculations made by scientists;
- Be a watchdog, for issues like women's rights;
- Media work look for ways to promote those articles that don't make it to the front page;
- Engage politically - like green party;
- Create space for dissent.

Rajesh: To summarizes what we need is a forum where people can act and work together, almost a training ground for protests/movements. It must act as a support group for people in India, and come up with ideas for people and struggles here and in India. As was pointed out earlier, lots of policy decisions made here in DC affect India. We need to create a resource center to contribute.

Michael: I would like to mention about the Corpwatch Center that is coming up in San Francisco. It will be meant for activists in India, to bridge a gap between citizens here in the US and in India. Corpwatch is a group that keeps an eye on organizations that use bad policies in countries where regulation is weak. The website is www.corpwatch.org. They don't have sufficient funds to start this idea of Corpwatch India. They want to bridge the gap between citizens here and in India and also within the country.

Zia: For those who have watched over the last 6 months, there is a fundamental transformation taking place. US is about to lift sanctions on India. The reason is that this will enable joint military planning and sales of military arms from US to India. India has also just signed a 2 billion dollar deal with Israel. We need people to archive these articles/news so that Indian journalists can publicize these.

Sandeep: Most of us here are either involved with Asha and/or AID and want to make grassroots interventions. But we have also realized that there is a need to make interventions and look at larger issues. After the nuclear tests, we see there is a lot of cooperation between countries in this military area and also mines etc. You can be here and support these movements mentioned by Zia and be representative of the people of India.

Pushpa: We must all realize that this forum has to make a serious commitment.

Nigamanth: But it is important to define commitment to what. Until our agenda and tasks are defined, commitment remains an abstract concept.

Sandeep: It is a commitment to work with people in India. To begin with, we will be just be contacts.

Pushpa: When we talk of participation in protests, we should not just hold banners, but reason with the World Bank etc.

Amrish: We can start by looking at ourselves as think tanks, to analyze issues. People should research these topics and put up material that could explain these things.

Satinath: We should look at various countries, especially European, where there are multi-lingual multi-ethnic places, and see how they have dealt with these issues. We can learn from these countries, there are various NGOs and issue-based organizations.

Rajesh: So it is clear that there should be a high level of commitment. Do we agree on the level of commitment?

Sanat: When we say that there are people here who are talking about various issues, but we should first see whether we all agree with the ideology.

Ashwin: Many of us here are already working on various issues in personal capacities. So I have questions about this notion of commitment and need for this forum. We all have already made commitments on other fronts. If commitment to this forum means we are going to digress from whatever activities we are doing elsewhere then I have concern on that. Secondly, I don't know how effective it will be with a lot of people in any one organization, just because people have different paces of working. In my work with India together, I find that because there are just the two of us, Subbu Vincent and me, responsibility is not dispersed and once I've done my share, he has to do his. I personally have trouble working with large groups of people.

Vinay: We need people who can commit to the main points of Sangharsh and Nirmaan, people who can relate to these concepts and are willing to accept them. But my question is how do you deal with dissent?

Sandeep: We will have to interact, one of the sides should be able to convince the other side. For example, The NAPM draft on the net is not acceptable to a lot of people, so one of the things you could do is to get a draft that has more input. I would like to see a forum whereby people in India can identify who is available for work, and know whom to contact when they need something.

Michael: This is sort of a support group. Communication is necessary, for example, we at PSS did not know much about the new education policy, but I know PSS will support/ be interested in working on these issues. There is so much of corruption in this entire deal of the World Bank's loan to Kutch, and there is no information available on the net and this was signed and completed seven months ago. So input is needed in these areas.

Vaishali: What if we took areas that we have already been working with, like Ashwin has been working on alternative media, and you could be the contact person for this.

Ashwin: This is a question I still want clarification on. I have already made promises to people I have been working with, and I don't want this to be inconsistent with what I am already involved with.

Venkatesh: We can start with a tentative proposal, say there could be one contact person for each of the conveners of the NAPM. This structure is something to go on.

Nalin: I have a similar doubt. There are already a lot of informal groups present, so what is the need to formalize this?

Michael: I myself prefer informal groups and in principle, I agree with you that there should be no formality. But unfortunately that does not work very well. This I can say from my experience in Germany. Though individuals are working here we need a formal structure Indian groups can interact with.

Sandeep: To add to what Michael said, by formalizing it, we could have a list of people we can contact.

Anant: Just as we are Asha, AID volunteers, it helps because you are more committed. In theory as individuals we could help any person in India, but having an organizational structure like Asha/AID helps. We can call ourselves Friends of NAPM.

Michael: I would like to emphasize that NAPM is not the only Indian group involved. There are a lot of issues that NAPM does not take up but are important, so it is not just NAPM.

Sanat: I would like to add that it is alright for individuals to have different interests and involvements etc as many people here already do, but it has more weightage if there is a forum.

Satinath: To get back to the question of political efficacy, the reason I think this works in countries in Europe is because of the electoral system they have, the proportional voting system. This is a very important issue. So Asha and AID should look in to this and educate themselves.

Nagini: When we get into the issue of supporting activists etc, it seems like it is the same group of people who are doing this. Right now, those people are overburdened, if this is formalized then other people can get more involved.

Subbu: There are certain commitments required and it is a personal decision. We need an activist group whether it is supporting people in India or direct activism like what Zia pointed out.

Rajesh: We have the commitment, now we can discuss the issues we want to work on. We should talk about what we need to do to get more people get involved.

Ashwin: I would like to repeat that the reason it has worked in India Together is because it is only the two of us. What I don't do, Subbu does and vice versa. We need to take mutual responsibility for each other's work in the forum and support each other. I would like to see smaller groups of two and three.

Kiran: We can start by looking at what previous groups have done, like the Friends of Narmada. People can see that there is a forum that they can join. We could call ourselves the Friends of People's Movements in India, this way others can join during specific times, depending on their interests.

Rajesh: Issues come and go and people may not agree on some issue, but that is not the reason why people come together. We can come together as a forum with clear principles so that like-minded people can work together.

Amrish: But don't these principles need to be articulated?

Sanat: What we need to do is define a space for ourselves and this is not possible with one single node or issue. Therefore it is not issue-specific but more a matter of creating a space, defining this space and accessing these space.

Supriya: Could you define what you mean by this space?

Sanat: All these issues are somehow linked: for example, Vidhi is working on this media front. Now how can this be connected to the activist issues Nagini is working on in Maryland or how does what Michael is talking about connect with chemical waste dumping in Philippines and Chennai.

Shailabh: Can we list these different interests?

Venkatesh: Can 15 people get together and build their own networks from say a start with someone who has already been working on this?

Subbu: There are already people working on different issues like the Narmada, Kashipur etc. for example myself, Sanat, Shanmuga, Vinay, Nagini and others. So is there any way in which these can connect?

Rajesh: We have the example of the NAPM before us. In fact how do these various issues and movements connect in the NAPM is something Sandeep and Michael can shed light on. But we need to get a structure in place.

Supriya: It is true that many of us, myself and others have been involved individually with these issues.

Michael: I think it would be a good idea to list the issues people are already working on.

Supriya: Nagini, why don't you start?

Nagini: We at AID have been working on industrial pollution, the World Bank and the earthquake and following up on these issues, since Michael pursued them when he was here. Leo Saldhana's work.

Supriya: The World Bank issue seems DC-centric.

Nagini: It is possible to write to them and so on but meeting them is easier if you're in DC.

Shanmuga: I can talk about the Kashipur issue. There are various e-groups formed to work on these issues. A small group of people have said they wanted to work on it. Some of us researched the various companies involved there and found that there are struggles are going on in British Columbia and in Uganda.

Tarun: There is also a group in Boston working on the Enron issue with Abhay Mehta. Maybe Vinay can speak about that.

Vinay: It is difficult to speak about this. This is because the whole issue is at a stalemate at this point. But what we have is a comprehensive database of all the information. It is on the web. We don't have a clear idea what is the next step. Latest update is that Enron is most likely on the way out, they are trying to sell this plant. They want to sell it at cost price that is at 1 billion dollars.

Venu: That is not the only issue. They are asking the Indian government to find the buyer. But it is forced sale to the government, not on the open market.

Kiran: Michael, are you at NAPM in touch with any grassroots movement on this issue?

Michael: There are no groups at the grassroots level. NAPM is supporting Abhay Mehta but not as much as they would like to.

Shanmuga: Shankar has put things together for the Kashipur issue. There is a group called Norwatch that has been following up on this company's activities for the past five years so they have a solid information archive. What we have is grassroots contact with the Kashipur people. So this can be a mutually beneficial relationship if we follow up on this and see how you could support these groups and get data out of them and maybe use it in our struggle. The next step is that we want to get in touch with them. However, grssroots work is not easy. There is this group of journalists called friends of PSS which we thought was an organization helping the local movement. But later we found out later that friends of PSS was publishing articles etc without their permission. So there is lot of politics involved at the grassroots that we have to be wary of.

Michael: There is a group watching the activities of Bayer. But they have had to withdraw their information, because of the legal implications. This is because they were using the name Bayer and that involved copyright issues etc.

Ashwin: If you see the media as an alternative you will not be able to win, you should be able to see that media as being mainstream. The bottomline here is who are we trying to inform? It is not the lack of information and knowledge among people who are sitting here, but it is the general public that needs to be informed.

Guha: I thought that Asha was going in three directions - projects, activism, and research for the data. We have come to a point here that we have tapped into a significant pool of people, we want to have a meeting of all the NGOs/groups here in the US. Therefore it is almost redundant to form yet another group. The effective need should be disseminating this information. This should be a forum where people can speak and you can form the temporary groups.

Melli: Often I find an issue I want to do something on but have no network to work with. Where I have not been able to find groups, people here may know about this. I was hoping to see such support.

Supriya: Some of us have been working on the tribal rights issue, by starting to look at the various Acts etc. available for use on this issue and basically, to educate ourselves. If there is anybody here who is willing to host a website, there is information available already.

Sanat: In my work with the waste-to-energy issue, I found there is a lot of jargon out there that the local groups there cannot understand. For example instead of incineration, company used term pyrolysis. After a lot of research it was found that both are the same thing. But given the technical pool available in this room, this is not difficult. So this is another kind of contribution.

Shailabh: Could we add more to this list?

Michael: There are two issues that I would like to see to. I met this group at Silicon Valley, and gave a talk and at the end of it, they said that they would be interested in rachna but not in sangharsh. Second, the Gujarat community here is very prosperous and organized and makes very generous contributions to charities back in India, for example, they contributed a couple of crores to a single NGO in the Gujarat earthquake. But it apparently supports only groups in Gujarat. It would be a good idea to tap this group and try to expand their horizon.. Therefore if there is something that comes up with Gujarat, or if one of you could contact them in your respective states and see what you can do, it would be a good idea.

Pushpa: A lot of groups in India also want to network with each other so that they can share information.

Sandeep: Just before coming here, I was involved with a workers struggle in a cloth mill. A decade or two back, the Government of India nationalized these eight mills because they were not running properly. But they did not do anything to solve the basic problems, technological upgradation etc, and the mills became extremely sick to the point that they would have to be shut down. But there were 40,000 people at stake. For a long time, wages and salaries were paid out even though there was zero production. Last year the government finally shut down the mills and stopped paying the workers.

In reality, the workers were losing their jobs since the management had not done its work, but the managers would not lose their jobs and would be transferred to other sectors. Thus the workers were the only ones to lose. We had a struggle there and I sat on a fast and later Medha joined me. Finally, the Prime Minister was forced to agree to start the mills but he did not send the official notice, and ultimately a lot of people had to sign the VSS - voluntary suppression scheme that is a step higher than the voluntary retirement scheme. So this is another issue this group could work on.

Satinath: I think the source of most evils is our electoral system so I would like to add campaigning for proportional representation system of elections to the list.

Melli: Sometimes, these right-wing organizations like VHP put up wrong information on their website. We should write to them and challenge them. In fact in one such case, something of this nature was pointed out to them and they had to publish the counter-claim.

Venu: Doing that can be very tricky. Once we at Narmada.org had to put up a web-based petition and for some reason, because IRN was to be updated sooner we put it up a letter on their website so that people could sign it. Within a short period we got a got a lot of hate-mail especially from Gujaratis, including some people who actually had signed our petition.

Amrish: Another issue is nuclear power/nuclear energy.

Rajesh: I think we have a long list of issues. Now if we are to get anything done in the short time we have left we should discuss how we want to do it.

Shobha: I think the first thing is that we should educate ourselves and send these petitions to people get back at home and friends to raise awareness.

Supriya: But this is in our individual capacities. Do you have any ideas on how the forum can proceed?
Rajesh: How many people are interested in these issues? Venu: I have been listening to this discussion so far and it seems to me that the key question to be addressed here is the nature of the commitment that every individual is willing to make. The time has come where we have recognised a qualitative need, these are just technicalities. Do we recognize fundamental the nature of these issues?

Satinath: There is a group here called the which talks about the various political concerns.

Rajesh: We can all agree that this whole forum is all about 'justice' and 'equality', and not about individual issues like Enron and Narmada.

Amrish: There are different definitions of these terms.

Venu: Can we all say that we agree that this is about 'sangharsh'….

Vaishali: There are some issues that have been bothering me for long. One is Indian laws. I was reading in this article by Smitu Kothari that there are about 1300 laws that are either outdated or serve the colonial times etc. It is important to work on reforming these. Distribution techniques of water, education material etc.

Satinath: I agree we need to prune down the laws and regulations in the constitution.

Rajesh: I would like to attempt a working definition for this forum - we are committed to sangharsh and rachna with the goals of justice and equality. This is a forum where information can be exchanged, where people can contact each other and network, for recruiting people interested.

Ashwin: I still think that unless each person has thought through and decided on a particular issue and made a personal, concrete commitment, there is no point of this exercise.

Dr. Bhagat: When you talk of equality, a personal commitment means you need to be able to say that I am equal to you and more importantly, you are equal to me…you…you and you. Can we all at this moment, say this to ourselves.

Sandeep: Like NAPM is an alliance, if people in this room who are involved with various issues can form an alliance and if we can have two names against each issue, it would be a good starting point.

Venu: When you say commitment, it does not mean that you have to slave all your time for it. It is more of a principle, more of an ideological thing. There are a lot of common interests, anti-globalization, Narmada, what have you but what matters is not the issues but that there is enough basis for forming an organization and bringing minds together.
Supriya: So are we saying that everybody is together on supporting people's struggles.

Venu: We support common issue like people's struggle.

Vinay: If there is a commitment to ideas of sangharsh and rachna, we should set another date for working out the specifics and have another meeting.

Kiran: We are having too much debate on the ideological specifics. But we're all agreed on the need for solidarity. To reaffirm our solidarity, we should be able to talk in the language that is known to the people at India. Therefore we should sing a song that I have here!

[Agreement that this can be done at the end.]

Dr. Bhagat: Can we at least decide on whether we support both rachna and sangharsh? Roughly, rachna means service and sangharsh means activism.

[A vote was taken with about 20 people in favour and none against (or undecided).]

Sandeep: What I want is to see people who are taking responsibility. I don't subscribe to the idea of sangharsh myself and I told Medha this but I am still working with the NAPM. Can people give their names if they want to be a part of this group?

DP: To end this on a positive note, I find most of us here have been transformed and educated at the end of this meeting. I personally have been transformed by what I have learnt here. And more important then the formal sessions, has been the fact that people has met face-to-face, interacted and formed relationships. So let us end this on a positive note.

Sandeep: We can now make a list of people interested in joining this forum and who we can contact later.

Supriya: Since Anirban has the list of participants let him do this.

People interested in being a part of this group/forum:

Sanat,Vaishali,Subbu, Venkatesh, Nagini, Shobha, Vineet, Dr. Mohan Bhagat, Maya, Nigamanth, Melli, Kiran, Harsh, Supriya, Vinay, Harish, Satinath, Rajesh, Ashima, Amrish, Kalpa, Shankar, Ashwin, Atul, Sanjeev, Sowmya, Anant, Manju, Sujit Nair, Vijay.

Dr.Bhagat: I am going to a conference of Indian people in Florida next week where I will publicize the formation of this forum. Identify the people who are working on the various topics.